.png)
The Curation by Nour Hassan
The Curation, formerly Radical Contemporary, is a Digital Curator and Podcast based between Cairo, Dubai & Jeddah. We curate everything from art, fashion, and design, to culture, wellness and tech to present you with only the best brands, founders, products and pioneers.
The Curation by Nour Hassan
Heba Shunbo: He's Just Not That Into You
Heba Shunbo is an entrepreneur, interior designer, author, podcast host and so much more. Heba along with her sisters founded The Four Fat Ladies, and exited the company after 10 years, in parallel Heba navigated becoming a mother at 40, writing her tell all book “Mommy’ Happy Hour”, and her soaring interior design career. Heba with her sister Nira Shunbo host the "Who Said What Podcast" a hilariously unfiltered show on the realities of dating, family, sisterhood and everything else in between.
This episode is packed with funny anecdotes, wise words of wisdom and unapologetic truths from someone who’s lived all over the world but still calls the cozy Cairienne island of Zamalek home. Subscribe on YouTube for the full video episode and listen wherever you get your podcasts 🎧🤎☕️🎙️
- Discussing the personal journey from investment banking to entrepreneurship
- Examining the importance of morning routines and self-care practices
- Exploring the founding story of Four Fat Ladies and the challenges of family businesses
- Unpacking Heba's approach to interior design and home aesthetics
- Sharing insights on mental well-being and managing motherhood alongside careers
- Navigating the creative process behind podcasting and the power of authentic conversations
- Reflecting on the importance of surrounding oneself with positive energy and art
Check out Heba's latest project and her podcast 'Who Said What' with Nira for more inspiring and funny conversations!
Action. Welcome to the Curation, a show for the culturally curious. This is your host, noor Hassan. Each week, I'll guide you through a curated edit of the finest in art, fashion, design, culture, luxury, wellness, tech and more. This is your go-to space for discovering trailblazing ideas, untold stories and meaningful conversations with innovators and creators who are shaping our world. There's no gatekeeping here, so sit back, tune in and let's discover only the best together.
Speaker 2:I'm going to shatter your dreams right now. Okay, so anything at that point working was purely and some women are going to kill me for saying this, but for me the working thing was just purely as a filler before I could get married and have kids.
Speaker 1:Oh my God, I love that you said that I need as much downtime and alone time to recharge, and that is the most random thing in the world, let me tell you, and you were a beautiful host and I wasn't there for long I felt like people weren't being very truthful because I wasn't a mother.
Speaker 2:you were really ballsy with it.
Speaker 1:I'm gonna use that word. You just talk about things that like I feel like it's like we're with you in the living room no, he's just not that into you.
Speaker 2:It changes your life upside down. Being a parent yeah, I was big on routine.
Speaker 1:All right guys. So right now I'm sitting with Heba Shombo, the incredible entrepreneur podcast host. Author Yani, so many things I don't. We can really start is our signature question of our curated podcast, which is who is Hiba Shambu right now, today? How would you describe yourself in the Hordo?
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, I find that honestly. Thank you for having me on this podcast. I'm very excited about it first of all. Honestly, thank you for having me on this podcast. I am very excited about it first of all, and you have great energy too, so it's like really.
Speaker 1:You as well. The minute I said hi to you, I was like, oh, great energy, which is so amazing. But yeah, tell me Okay.
Speaker 2:Honestly, I find that one of the most difficult questions to answer, when somebody tells me that I'm like where am I now? Well, throughout the years I've done so many different things, so I think I'm not going to. I would say I'm a work in progress, because a lot of people say you're 40s, you've got things figured out In your 50s. You've definitely got things figured out, and I am approaching 50 and I don't think I've got anything figured out in your 50s. You've definitely got things figured out and I am approaching 50. And I don't think I've got anything figured out yet. So I think I'm just a work in progress. I guess A work in progress.
Speaker 2:Definitely.
Speaker 1:I love that. It's a scary statement when they say your 40s, you should get things figured out.
Speaker 2:Why do we say that, yeah, I don't know, and I'm always kind of confused about that because I'm almost 50. And I'm always kind of confused about that because I'm almost 50 and I really don't think I have my shit together and I really think that a lot of things I'm so confused about still. So when people tell me that I'm like I'm even past my forties, I'm going into my fifties, and I'm like, no, I don't, I don't know, you know, I don't know.
Speaker 1:I think some women have it figured out, um, but me I'm actually nowhere near there. Still, it's interesting, so we, I always like to start by kind of getting a feel of who you are as a person. But you can tell a lot about a person by their morning routine. I don't know why I just whenever I ask someone that question, it just tells me a lot. I want to know what's a morning in Heba's household, like what's your morning routine.
Speaker 2:Okay, mornings are sacred for me. I actually love morning. Okay, morning time is so important because I sleep early. How early? Well, anywhere between recently, anywhere between 9.30 and 10.30, I'm in bed reading at least. Oh my God.
Speaker 1:You're like are you Egyptian I?
Speaker 2:know, are you an Egyptian? But you know, for the longest time I mean at one point my husband and I worked on completely different schedules because of that. So I kind of when I try to be like 11, but he doesn't, he lives between here and somewhere else. Okay, so he works here and somewhere else. Okay, so he works here and somewhere else. So when he's not here, I sleep earlier. Okay. When he's here, I sleep probably a little bit later, like probably around 11. But he sleeps quite late, fair, you know, like I think that's very typical here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, same, like it is really common. But I think sleeping early, I wear a whoop and the founder he's Egyptian and he said recently on some sort of statistics that the Middle East has some of the latest sleeping times, sleep times that they get recorded, which is, so, I mean, typical of our culture. But okay, you sleep early. I'm assuming you wake up early. Yes, I wake up very early.
Speaker 2:Okay, so I wake up. Yeah, I wake, but I don't wake up that early Actually given that I sleep quite early. I don't wake up that early, I need sleep.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So I probably wake up around six, I would say Also because my kids are kind of young. They're turning seven soon, so they're up early. Yeah, they're up probably around 6, 6.30. I really wish I could wake up an hour before them, because, but waking up at five I tried to do the whole 5am club thing, the 5am club.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I tried to let me tell you there's a. I think I have a podcast episode about that which I later edited and was like yeah it's, it's not happening.
Speaker 2:No, no, I tried it for a while. It's too much for me. I realized before six my immunity crashes so I cannot.
Speaker 1:I could be awake awake, kind of awake at 5 am, yeah, but if I get out of bed it's like a whole different ball game?
Speaker 2:no way. So I stay in bed. So I'm six, anywhere between 6 and 6 30 I'm up. Still early, very early yeah, yeah, it's early and even though I feel like I don't even have enough time in the morning because, I'm I start my mornings really, really slow, so I'm kind of slow.
Speaker 1:I need two hours to kind of give us the details like what are you? What are you up to? Like you got up, you're out of bed, what are you doing?
Speaker 2:okay, first of all, my kids. You know they go to school early, at 7 30, so I'm with them, I hang out with them, I talk to them, I chat with them, because I don't have that much time during the day. I'm quite busy, so that time I I'm usually with them, have breakfast, I have coffee or tea or whatever. I don't have a set routine when it comes to that. I'm going to give you details. So everybody has their morning coffee. Yes, my sister actually, she's like. I look forward to sleeping so I can wake up and have my morning coffee.
Speaker 1:I'm not like that I have.
Speaker 2:sometimes I do tea. Okay, sometimes I do a bulletproof coffee, which is something you know. A lot of people don't know about. What's that? What's bulletproof coffee? A bulletproof coffee is a coffee mixed with ghee. Oh, you do that or butter.
Speaker 1:Yes, that's so interesting.
Speaker 2:I've been doing that for like I think, 12 years, but on and off. Oh, okay, like. So when I have coffee, I usually have it like that. I usually don't have the adverse effects of caffeine, because caffeine can really affect me negatively Like jitters yeah. Not only that my mood, your mood, it affects my mood. Okay, but when I have it like that, it's pretty good Interesting. I'm going to try it. Yeah, you have to try it.
Speaker 1:I'll give you the recipe. And what else? Okay, you got them to school. Yes, do you like? Do any of like the the?
Speaker 2:the I want to say journaling, meditating, all of this. I do meditating sometimes, but I kind of I found that it does. It works for me better when I meditate at night before I go to bed. Okay, so I do that more now. At night morning, I do tai chi. Oh, I've just recently started, like in the past six months. I love it. Tai chi, yes, tai chi yoga.
Speaker 1:I used to be a yoga instructor as well, so I'm what I love, this okay, so your assistant didn't send me that part. A yoga instructor, come in a long time ago you know what? She probably was scared to add one more.
Speaker 2:Yes, one more thing to the list that we're gonna talk about, because guys get ready like this is like a very long list.
Speaker 2:Yes, it's actually. I used to be yoga, but I do sometimes yoga. Okay, tai chi has become my general because it's more gentle and it's nice. It's good for the joints, it's, it's nice, it's a nice way to gently kind of get your body going. And where do you do tai chi? At home, at home. Okay, cool, recently I do everything at home and I do three times, three times a week. I do also hit workouts interesting at home as well, at home, which I never used to, by the way, but now it's like recently.
Speaker 2:It makes my life easier, it's quicker, I can do it on my own time and then I'm done, and then you know, I have breakfast and just like kind of go yeah, and it's, and it's.
Speaker 1:I think it's like interesting. If you want to get a hold of like a pace in your life, I think trying to do as many things as possible at home really helps with that. Yeah, obviously. Okay, interesting. And so a quick one on your skincare routine. You said you're going to give me some tips. Guys, I cannot believe. I cannot believe how amazing Hiba looks.
Speaker 2:Thank you, I can't believe it. Thank you, if anybody who's listened to my podcast knows that I'm obsessed with that whole aging thing.
Speaker 1:Okay, so you need to give me like the quickest like skincare routine, like in the morning. Do you like actually get up and like do the whole cleanser and na na?
Speaker 2:na or do you?
Speaker 1:just moisturize. Are you simple? I'm more simple.
Speaker 2:I do, I cleanse, okay, and then I put I always put SPF, okay. And recently I usually put this thing called BB cream. Do you know it? Oh, it's like a. It has a bit of a slight tint and that's good as you age, because it kind of covers the blemishes and blotches a little bit that kind of thing okay but I keep it simple. But I do moisturize.
Speaker 1:I have to put eye cream spf during the day and at night I always have to put cream okay, and it plans and all that but I keep it simple.
Speaker 2:I don't wear much makeup, which I love I love that. Thank you seriously. I love it when I see other women wearing makeup. I find it so nice and so feminine and I'm like what I'm?
Speaker 1:a train wreck when I try to do it I'm like I'm I'm in love with makeup and it's a little crazy and my husband is always like I like it more when you don't. You know how they are like, okay, I like it more when you don't have makeup on, but it's like it's not for you, it's like it's for me, yeah, it's for me. So, but I love, I love your look. So I'm just okay.
Speaker 2:So it's simple, it's nothing crazy, yeah, yeah, and just like I put a bit of blush and and gloss, that's and gloss, yeah, okay okay, so let's get into the nitty-gritty with you.
Speaker 1:You have a incredible trajectory in terms of a career, um, and I want to know. Well, at the beginning you started off in finance correct and investment banking, which is major, and whenever I meet a woman in investment banking, I really think that you have a character that probably I don't want to say it's tougher than most, but siani, akida, nick y you're able to hold your own in a room. And not just that, I think investment banking what was something that it really taught you in terms of your character that you had to build? Do you feel?
Speaker 2:I'm going to shatter your dreams right now. Okay, so I will tell you that, doing investment banking okay, I graduated in 98 from college. Right At that time, not many people had any idea of what they were really going to do. Well, no, no. Okay, a lot of people knew exactly what they were going to do, but I really did not and there wasn't many things to choose from. Right At that time, fair, I was studying in the States. I came back here and I was like what am I going to do?
Speaker 1:I studied literature in college.
Speaker 2:I read okay I read that you studied literature, which is really interesting and french comparative, so it's french and english okay, and it was really, really, really interesting and I loved the whole reading thing and I love these things that are more kind of mind, expanding a little bit let let's say so I came back here and I said what am I going to do?
Speaker 2:I had no idea. I said I'll get into banking because I got like a couple of offers and I got interviews and things like that. So I got into that. Let me say that for me, anything at that point working was purely and some women aren't going to kill me for saying this but for me the working thing was just purely as a filler before I could get married and have kids oh, my god, I love that I know some people are gonna find that, but I was 98 and I was thinking so.
Speaker 1:So you were not working, you were not going into it like I'm gonna be the career woman ham and my career, I don't care about this. You were like no, I'm just. This is like a means to make money, obviously, and to eventually I want to get married and and have kids, and have kids and stay at home wow, literally I love.
Speaker 2:But I got into investment banking. Honestly, I met a lot of nice people and I learned a lot. Okay, um, I was I'm not really good at numbers and things like that and finance, and so for me it was a good way to learn a few things. But it's not my, it wasn't. I wasn't really talented at it. I have, okay, I mean, if I'm gonna be very honest, it wasn't my thing, okay, and you did you find, did you figure this out?
Speaker 1:like, after how long did you feel like this is not my thing? I was there for three years. Okay, that's not too long, like it's long enough.
Speaker 2:Well, you know it's not long when you're that age, but as you get to my age you're like, oh why did I waste three? Years on that. But anyways, it was fine. I did that. I met a few interesting people. Some of them are my friends till now and they're very accomplished and very successful because they're smarties. But yeah, but that was it. It was just at the time. It was not like now.
Speaker 2:You don't have very much choice. You're younger. It was a time where I think our generation wasn't so self-aware yeah, like you guys are. Yes, which is admirable and quite it's.
Speaker 1:I mean, I don't know if we're the most self-aware generation. I mean I think, okay, I'm a millennial, let's say, but I think there's more self-aware than this, but at least I think we felt that there were options.
Speaker 2:Yes, you have more options. I don't know what that means. In 98, we didn't have any options. Okay, they were very limited. It's like people were like, literally, it was kind of you're going to be. I had a lot of friends that were becoming doctors. Right, I had a lot of friends studying to be architects, bankers, bankers, and most people in Egypt at that time were bankers like.
Speaker 1:They were like going into investment banking in the finance world and CIB and doing the investment program and all that. So that's what that was, yeah, so, okay. So you leave investment banking and you pivoted many times and we'll get into the interior design, because I really want to get into this. But first I want to quickly just go and touch on something that for me, was a major milestone in my life, which is finding a really good brownie in Egypt like a delicious dessert was a real problem at a time. Let me tell you, it's true and you are one of the co-founders of the Four Fat Ladies guys, this brand, because anyone who lives in egypt knows that at some point in life, the brownies that for fat ladies were like some sort of like hidden commodity the salted caramel brownie was something that I would go to the ends of the earth, for I would drive from wherever I was in sehal to diplo kilometers.
Speaker 1:Grab a box and like we're hiding it, I mean everyone. But anyway, tell me about the founding story of the four fat ladies very briefly, because this is very briefly.
Speaker 2:I'll tell you briefly because actually that we have. We just did a podcast, my sister and I, about that.
Speaker 1:Yes, because so you guys can listen to that for the whole thing yes, it gives you it's.
Speaker 2:I think it's 30 minutes and because so many people have asked us so many questions about that, it's like the number one on people's minds so I mean you co-founded the four fat ladies with your sisters right so I think the main question I want to ask regarding this, because it was a great business.
Speaker 1:It really really had an impact on the market it's a great brand it's a great brand. Let me tell you like branding very controversial, very funny, exactly, yeah, and you forgot. You guys called it with the four fat ladies you did that, so, um, the products were good, and then you, you exited after 10 years. Correct exactly. My main question about it, since you guys can go listen to the whole story, is how is it working with family sisters?
Speaker 2:okay, no sugar coating, no sugar coating. God, oh my god, it's tough, it's very tough. It's tougher than anything, I think, because you kind of live together, right, yeah, so when you have disagreements and it's, it's very challenging to kind of be able to, because everybody gets involved. Your mother gets involved, your father gets involved and you're like, well, what family? Yeah, yeah, no, we'd have situations like this. Oh, but this is, you know, you know, and I was like, oh my God, this is just like too much for me. Yeah, but it just it really was very draining.
Speaker 2:I think, we had, of course we had. I think we were very, we were very aligned on the vision of the four fat ladies. For sure, the three, of us, okay, and three sisters, we're three sisters, but our oldest sister is just kind of she was an investor. She is just kind of she was an investor. She what doesn't live here. She hasn't lived here since 91, so, oh wow, she wasn't really involved. She gave, she helped out a lot with the recipes.
Speaker 2:We all did because we all bake for that was the thing that we collaborated on.
Speaker 1:We worked well on that front very well.
Speaker 2:Uh, we knew exactly what products we wanted to do and all of that, um, in terms of business, it was just near and I running it. I was doing operations and stores and marketing and branding and all of that and Nir was basically doing the products and production and all of that.
Speaker 1:And so, like what? What for you, like was the most fulfilling part of running that business for 10 years, as because it isn't, ultimately it's a bakery it's one of, I think, the toughest fields to get into.
Speaker 2:honestly, I'll tell you, fulfilling was basically that. I think we had a brand that really resonated with a lot of people. Yeah, a lot of people loved it. It was a fresh brand, it was out of the box, it was fun. Yeah, uh, I think that in that sense, it really reflected me and my sisters I think so too I think, I think your energy was there.
Speaker 1:It was fun, it was. That's the fact of it, isn't it?
Speaker 2:yeah, I loved that part of it. Uh, the only thing is that you know, it's just the challenge. I mean, it was fun because I learned so many new things also um, I was. I'd never been in the food business before, yeah, and let me tell you that is one of the most challenging industries to be in. I, I exited. I would never get into that again. You would never get into the F&B.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I can imagine and I want you to just tell the audience, maybe like a little anecdote of, for example, one of the toughest moments in the entrepreneurial, in that entrepreneurial phase, and that you can remember. I'll tell you. Hmm, just like one thing that you remember. That was like oh my God, I can't believe we got through that, for example, even if it was emotionally.
Speaker 2:Well, I'll tell you. I'll tell you something that came up. I find that in Egypt, when you start something new, there's it's always very challenging because everybody, if it's not something they're familiar with oh yeah, they just they, they, they push again Like they, they, they want to, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's either they push a lot or there's a lot of copying quickly. But copying is flattering.
Speaker 2:Absolutely Like. I'll tell you this was a story Like at the beginning, when we first opened our first store NEMMS Center we had people coming in.
Speaker 1:Oh my God, the NEMMS Center store. I know remember.
Speaker 2:I designed that one as well, so good, anyways, somebody came in and they were like oh it was new for them. They had not heard about the brand. So they're like, oh, this is amazing. What do you, what do you guys? What is the product that is most popular? I don't. We said we think the salted caramel, you know, is something that's really amazing. You should try it. They were like appalled. They're like what salt on caramel?
Speaker 2:that's disgusting and I was like you know, it know it's not, it's not a new thing. People do the salted caramel. It's. It's kind of. You know, we didn't really invent it.
Speaker 1:We didn't invent it.
Speaker 2:but Exactly, I was like, no, no, give it a try. No, no, no, oh, that's gross. But they wouldn't. And then, probably a few months later, we had somebody come in and they're like, uh, you, you know, we want the salted caramel brand, but we have a comment about it. We're like what they're like? It doesn't have enough salt. I was like, oh my god, it's so funny how people you know like when it's something new, they reject it.
Speaker 2:And then, when there's good feedback about it, then all of a sudden they loved it and now it's like there isn't enough salt in it. You know what I?
Speaker 1:mean. So it's like, literally, you guys, like you were shifting the taste in the market, exactly in many ways and I think I agree with that.
Speaker 1:I think one of the first times I really like absorbed the idea of salted caramel was through the four fat ladies. I mean, I grew up in saudi arabia, let's be real, like this is a but yeah, I mean, it was all very yeah, we didn't have those cute boutique um bakeries and things like that. Now they do, now now we do, but yeah, I think it was just for me. I had to touch on this because I felt it was a revolutionary moment in the bakery scene in.
Speaker 2:Egypt.
Speaker 1:And ever since then there have been many, many iterations of brilliant brands.
Speaker 2:So many, so many, so many.
Speaker 1:But you guys, I feel we're the OG, thank you.
Speaker 2:So there's that, but yeah, it's true. A lot of people imitated us after that with the salted caramel, which, like you said we were very flattered.
Speaker 1:Can never forget it. Okay, let's pivot, guys. Okay, so I want to go into interior design because right now, guys, I was so we're filming in my apartment and Hiba said she liked one thing, and I was just beyond thrilled. I'm like, thank you. How in the world did you pivot to interior design? I read in your bio that you took a course or you took a couple of courses, I'm assuming and you went from investment banking to the F&B to interior design. And yeah, just tell me, how did that happen?
Speaker 2:Okay, well, interior design. I've been in interior design since 2006. So it's been almost 20 years.
Speaker 2:Very long time. Yeah, I started the Four Fat Ladies after that actually. But interior design was something I always I'm very much of a home body. So for me and also I say I will say I draw my interior design as as an introvert I'm a bit I'm an introvert, so for me the home is really important. Yes, and I need as much downtime and alone time to recharge as I do with, like if I'm, if I spend time with people like for an hour, I need an hour or two alone time to recharge. So for me home is so important and that's why my aesthetic kind of revolves around that. It revolves around basically I don't do anything crazy or wild okay I don't.
Speaker 2:I like things that are like harmonious, timeless, so that when you go see it in 10 years time it feels like it's still relevant, right? I did a lot of things at the beginning where I felt, uh, when I look back at them I'm like, oh that was why did I like?
Speaker 2:like strong colors or strong kind of statement things. I don't like that so much. I realized that was like strong colors or strong kind of statement things. I don't like that so much. I realized that was like the first couple of years, or probably three, four years, because I was kind of going trying to go with the trend. But I realized I like the more neutral Zen spaces, kind of like like you go in, it needs to be a sanctuary. Yes, for me, that's how I like. I like art, I like, you know, just like clean lines, um, soft colors, and so I do that a lot with my clients mainly.
Speaker 1:I want you to describe your aesthetic for me, because I personally, I, when I, when we just met now, before recording I, I told you that, guys, I went to a new year's party at Hiba's place and that is the most random thing in the world, let me tell you, and you were a beautiful host and I wasn't there for long, but what I do remember is it was just felt like the coziest vibe.
Speaker 1:I don't know if it was because you got, you had like a candle vibe going and it was new year's eve and everything was just like a nice energy. But, um, shout out to our friend karima, who ended up this meet cute. But in general, I felt what you're saying, which is that it was just the most timeless, just nothing crazy, but at the same time very, very bold. So, yeah, what? How would you describe your aesthetic personally?
Speaker 2:um, for me. That's what it like. I don't do. I do like off whites, yeah, for like walls. I never do colors anymore. Okay, um, I like simple, simple, functional, practical, but I use a lot of neutral tones. I'd like mostly beiges, and and for me, art is very important.
Speaker 1:Really.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I find it Interesting. I like and I collect art. I really like to. So even when I'm broke, I'll like buy something, buy a piece of art, especially by Egyptian artists.
Speaker 1:I was going to ask is it local artists, local as in Egyptian here? Yes, or really?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love that. I think there's so many good ones and I think, with time, at the beginning I started off buying small little things and then now it's like I always like the big paintings. I like things that make a statement, so that's why my home doesn't have anything crazy, but I'll have like a big painting. That's a bit random.
Speaker 1:What's a piece that you love in your home by an artist.
Speaker 2:There's this one by Bahaguri Iconic, that is very, but it's not his. I mean, I like him, but I don't necessarily like his stuff, all of his stuff, because it feels very repetitive, right, but this one is really random and very different from what his, what his usual stuff. It's this like face of a woman and it's, it's a bit, it's, it's odd, it's not not the usual bahuri, so that's what I like about it and like color.
Speaker 1:Is it like one of the colorful ones or no, it's not it's a lot of beiges with black and kind of where did you find that I?
Speaker 2:found it randomly somewhere. I don't even remember where I found it but, I was like, and my husband's like, she's horrible. I was like I want her now so we bought it.
Speaker 1:Okay, I loved it. Maybe you should help me source some art, because that's the one thing that I have not gotten to and I think it's the one thing that can really definitely elevate a home it also. It gives it character, it gives it depth, yeah, you know, yeah I agree, right now we're on my podcast and you have a podcast. Yes, well, actually you have had iterations of podcasts mommy's happy hour, that's true which we discussed, and I was a listener.
Speaker 2:I'm not a mom, but I'm really impressed that you're a listener, because I don't think I had many listeners, no, but I was one of the listeners and I loved it.
Speaker 1:I thought it was I. I personally thought it was. You were really ballsy with it. I'm gonna use that word because you went in on a right topics that nobody talks about remind me, I which topic like comes to mind.
Speaker 1:Can I tell you something? I feel like in Egypt, the topic of how difficult motherhood is, that's true, is an elusive one for sure. I mean on TikTokiktok. If you go on tiktok, you will find many creators really digging deep with this topic. But you also wrote a book, guys, about this topic. Mommy's happy hour. Thank you for gifting me this book. I'm gonna, I'm gonna really read this.
Speaker 2:I hope you enjoy. There are a lot of people that have read it that aren't mothers that enjoyed it. No, I'm gonna.
Speaker 1:I'm gonna like and it matches everything today, so I'm loving, loving it. It's my neutral tones.
Speaker 2:Yes, exactly.
Speaker 1:But I feel like for even though you pivoted from this, like why did you feel like this was a topic that you could? I mean, where did you get the courage to go in and talk about all of the nitty gritties of motherhood?
Speaker 2:Okay, I think well, it goes back to when I wrote my book. Yeah, Okay. So for me, I feel that I wrote the book because for so many years I was trying to get pregnant. I was not able to get pregnant, so that's another story. Yes, it took me like literally probably 12, 13 years to get pregnant. Finally, okay, for me, my whole thought process was like I have to. You know, all I want is like to have kids, right?
Speaker 1:Yes, so I, so you had a whole 10 year journey with infertility.
Speaker 2:Yes, the whole thing, yeah, so basically I did IVF like a zillion times if it was like it and it was quite tough time.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:And all my friends, cause, you know, I had my kids at 40, right, and all my friends because, you know, I had my kids at 40, right and all my friends had already had kids. And I felt kind of left out. I felt isolated and I heard and everybody was telling me all these things about motherhood. So it just I really felt left out. So basically my whole thing was thinking about like getting pregnant, right. And then when I had the kids I was like, oh my, my god, I never thought about what I'm gonna do after I have kids. So finally I got pregnant at the age of 40. Wow, so it's like you, it's like.
Speaker 1:It's like you were, you got pregnant at 40 and you had kids. You had twins. No, yeah, okay, so that's like another, like that's another oh yeah, it's, another big.
Speaker 2:Thing. Oh my god, yeah yeah but so. So basically I had them, and at 40, and then I like, oh my God, and experiencing it is so unlike what anybody tells you, so I felt it's such bullshit what people say about motherhood.
Speaker 1:But why? What did you feel like? Was it too much sugarcoating?
Speaker 2:in the diet Sugarcoating.
Speaker 1:Or too much, like there was not enough out there, Osslan, I think it's too much sugar.
Speaker 2:Well, there was not enough out there. Also, I think it's too much sugar coating. I think nobody wants to tell you really what it is, or you know what I felt, to be honest, after the fact. I felt like people weren't being very truthful because I wasn't a mother so they didn't want me. Oh interesting, they didn't want me to be kind of part of that discussion, I think.
Speaker 1:Yeah, or it's like you don't get it, so we're not. So we're just going to tell you the like surface layer yes, oh, it's hard.
Speaker 2:I always got the, I always got the comments, which were horrible, I think, and very non-supportive. This you don't know because you don't have kids, of this you don't know because you don't have kids, oh, oh, you don't know how it feels, you don't know what you're going to be like because you don't have kids. I got that all the time, all the time, and I was like from okay, like this would I be in, or from afar, like very close, close, front. Close and far. Oh, close and far what do you mean?
Speaker 2:well of course you don't know. But I was like why would you tell me that I mean, I, you know I want to have kids, and why would you? Oh, you don't know what you're going to be like because you don't, you don't have kids. You don't know what it feels like. Oh, okay, that's nice.
Speaker 1:And so that's why I kind of that was my kind of my motivating factor for writing the book because I was like, okay, now I'm a mother, I know what, but like the stereotypes, urban legends, everything yes, exactly, I think that's so interesting. But you said that essentially, mommy's Happy Hour was a podcast that you started, but you felt like you don't want it to be all focused on motherhood, so you stopped that podcast at some point.
Speaker 1:And now you have this amazing podcast called who Said what with Nira, which I'm also following. Okay, good, but you guys are also very unfiltered, like I don't know how how are you getting? The courage to be this unfiltered. It's really scary like people are very vicious I know on social media.
Speaker 2:Well listen, nira and I are polar opposites.
Speaker 2:We're sisters, nira and I near as my sister. We're polar opposites, we're completely different people. Literally, she is zero filter, zero, I'm considered unfiltered, but not like nira. Yeah, it has no filter, and I think that's what makes it interesting, because we have two very different characters, very different points of view. Okay, and it makes it fun, yes, the fact that the backlash that's why I'm okay doing it in English, because I think that this, I think maybe some things would be maybe a little bit not not so well received by maybe the more. Trust me.
Speaker 1:Trust me yeah, not so well received by maybe trust me. Trust me, ayani and my podcast. Like I have arabic words slip out and like listen, it's not english or arabic, but it is what I am, which is this, and I did a podcast tomorrow that was fully arabic and I made the amazing mistake of putting that on tiktok. And let me tell you, oh my god, did you get slammed, ripped to shreds, slammed, slammed, and it wasn't even like that much of a controversial topic. But and who said what? You guys sit together in your home and you're chilling it's very cozy, I love that and you just talk about things that, like you know, I feel like it's like we're with you in the living room is that the is?
Speaker 1:that what you wanted really for that podcast.
Speaker 2:I wanted it to be casual and just kind of unfiltered cozy vibe and I think, yeah, I think it seems to be like when people come for the podcast they really like it, because we're like, literally, you know, no shoes on, curled up on the sofa. We ask just these random questions.
Speaker 1:We don't script, we don't we, because we want it to be completely natural and, you know, to flow completely naturally what's a topic that you guys disagree on like big time, that you talk about sometimes like that you and do not agree on.
Speaker 2:We don't agree on much so we like the four fat ladies. There's a lot of disagreement there on that podcast I thought there was a lot of like tension. There's tension there, so you can listen to that one.
Speaker 1:There is a tension, there is also.
Speaker 2:um well, she's in the dating scene. I'm not, oh yeah. And so I have a very different point of I mean, I'm kind of I feel like such a dinosaur when, when I hear her stories, I'm like what?
Speaker 1:Do you have any advice to give regarding the dating scene?
Speaker 2:at all.
Speaker 1:By the way I. Do you give her advice or like I'm out.
Speaker 2:No, she doesn't like to take my advice, so I don't give advice and I've learned to kind of let her. She's also in her 40s, so she's a big girl. I let her do whatever she wants. She wants to share with me, that's to share with me, that's fine. She doesn't want to, she's fine. I'm I'm a little brutal when it comes to advice. I'm that. You know that movie, uh, she's just not. He's just not that into you. Yeah, that was like my saying all the time. I'd be like no, he's just not that into you. They're like no, but I think he's going through a rough time.
Speaker 2:No, he's just not that he doesn't like you, like I used to and and people used to, but I used to be a little brutal, but not that I'm like no, no, but I feel like it shouldn't be that much hard work. Dating it should be fun. That's the fun time, right, yeah, I mean you're married, I mean the. The dating is where you know it's. You know fun, you go out me. I think. As a woman, I feel like if a guy really wants you, you're going to feel it, You're going to know it right?
Speaker 1:I think I agree with you. Look, I feel like from listening to your podcast, I can sense that you are a sort of I'm going to give it to you straight person Like you're not going to be like oh, but maybe I feel like you're the type of person where you would just say what it is, and I think you're right about that.
Speaker 1:I want to circle back a little bit. So, on the who Said what? Podcast, okay, you have guests right, and you've spoken about the four fat ladies. You've spoken about many, many different topics. Do you ever speak about motherhood or parenting on that podcast or not?
Speaker 2:I think I mentioned things. Every once in a while, I talk a lot about motherhood. Maybe I talk about marriage. Those things are, you know, obviously they're my life, so yeah.
Speaker 1:I think what's really interesting about you and the reason, one of the reasons I wanted to have you as a guest is because you can speak about so many different topics, like from interior design to entrepreneurship, to parenting, to all of these different things. I think you're a good person to ask, maybe regarding parenting for some of my because a lot of my audience now are very young moms for real, like my friends Okay, so what's the best and worst parenting advice that you've gotten, parenting advice that you've gotten Best advice, I think, was from my sister, and she said it's never the right time to have kids, right, yeah?
Speaker 2:So if you always feel daunted by the fact that you're like, oh, maybe, maybe in a few years, when I finished this, trust me, in a few years you're gonna have other things and it's not going to be a good time either. It's never going to be the right time. Right, Because it's always a challenging time and you always want to do more things and you know, it's never the right time.
Speaker 2:That's one thing. Okay, the worst parenting advice I think advice in general is bad from people because I feel like you're always you're a different person. Yeah, you parent differently. Everybody parents their own way. Your kids are different. I always hated and I still to this day. I don't do it and I'm very conscious of it, because a lot of parents will always be like oh no, it's easier for you because you have twins, or it's easier for you because you have a boy and a girl. You don't have two girls.
Speaker 1:Like. There's always I find people do that a lot here the easier perspective, like giving you a sort of like oh, but that's bad, you know, like you're, you're not mean, you have it easier oh, like everybody wants to make it look like they have it harder, like it's hard for all of us.
Speaker 2:of course it's hard for mothers of twins. There's some perks of having twins and some really downsides of having twins, and the same thing with having, you know, kids that are separate. You know everybody used to tell me, oh, but twins is easier because they they're on the same schedule, they eat the same things. I said they're not, they're twins. They're not clones of each other.
Speaker 1:They have different personalities. They're two people.
Speaker 2:So in that sense people have a misconception of what twins are like. Yeah, but I think it's just. First of all, it changes your life upside down being a parent, so you never know what.
Speaker 1:You cannot explain to somebody what it's like until you're actually in it and like the routine thing, like when people talk about routines and schedules and no, no, what does that become?
Speaker 2:yeah, I, I was big on routine. I feel I was big on schedule with the kids I wasn't at the beginning, but the twins it was a nightmare because the naps were like like literally you're not a parent so you don't know this, but you'll see. It's like they nap the first six to months to a year. There's always napping, napping napping, napping. So when you have, two and one naps and the other one wakes up and then the other one naps, and then you're like I'm not I'm gonna go insane.
Speaker 2:I was like no, I have to be on a schedule so I, literally I sleep train them from like four months, that's insane.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, wow. Four months, yeah, okay. So give us one pro and one con of having twins, like for the, just in general. That's your experience.
Speaker 2:Well, pro is great at my age to have twins, because you're done, you're done, basically yeah yeah, I would have loved to have more kids, but you know, at my age, you know that's it, you're good yeah, um, the con of having twins is that they're at the same stage, so you kind of need to give, you need to spend alone time with both of them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's hard and it's difficult with both, because it's well.
Speaker 2:This is one thing somebody told me about. Pros like this is a pro and a con of having twins. The pro of having twins is that they always have a play date. They always have a partner to play with.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And the con of it is they always have somebody to play with. Do you know what I mean? But it's like they, they can entertain each other for their, so they're always together. But then sometimes you're like you'll be in the house and there'll be running around, running around, running, screaming, screaming, running around and you're like, oh my God, I wish they'd never ending.
Speaker 1:Exactly, it's a never ending. That's scary, but but it's really cute. It's really cute. I keep it's cute. Yeah, yeah, okay. So why did you choose podcasting? I'm actually curious about that, since you're a podcaster, I'm a podcaster. Why did you choose podcasting out of everything you could have done? Like, what made you think I'm going to go buy two mics and sit down and talk?
Speaker 2:I think initially because it was a little bit challenging for me. I'm I'm like I said, I think initially because it was a little bit challenging for me. Like I said, I'm introverted, I'm a bit shy and I don't really like to put myself out there. So when, especially as I've gotten older, after I had the kids, that's when I said I'm going to put myself out there because I don't like to have regrets, Because you know, that's like one of the things like the people that are on their deathbed, that's the worst thing that they regret not doing certain things that they wanted to do right. So I said I'm not going to.
Speaker 2:I'd love to anything that I feel a little bit fearful of. I kind of try to do now okay, and I thought it'd be nice to. So that part is kind of challenging my own fears and, at the same time, what's nice about it is I'm able to connect with other people. I love connecting, like this conversation. It's nice to have one-on-one conversations. I find that really nice because you really connect more on a deeper level and they're more meaningful. So I thought this is a great way to meet people and learn from people and get inspired by other people what they're doing so. That's why I, why I did the podcast.
Speaker 1:I love doing the podcast but it was out of your comfort zone it is out of my comfort zone oh okay, yeah, well, I feel like you're a natural on the mic like I feel like you, you came in, you're like, you know what it is well, yeah, I've had practice.
Speaker 2:Now, that's the thing. You know everything that's a bit daunting at the beginning. Once you can carry on and just power through, you find that you do learn a lot.
Speaker 1:You grow from it and you started in 2020, which is when I started, by the way, hiba, and at the time, let me tell you, nana, I had, I was I would say I'm doing a podcast in Egypt, even though it's it's an age old medium. And what's a podcast? Yes, yes, yes, yes, I know literally what's a podcast. I would enter like meetings, okay, like whatever. What's a podcast? I'm like, oh, it's like the modern day radio and I'm gonna. I was trying to describe what it is.
Speaker 1:So it was still, by the way, kind of a pioneering move from you, it's true, you know, even as an entrepreneur, and at the time you were solo and then you brought on nira yeah, yeah, it's true.
Speaker 2:At the time I remember people saying what, like why people would call it a podcast. To this day, really like no, this is our podcast I know, I had such a hard time with it. I was like, oh my god, this is just ridiculous. But I didn't have a social media account. I didn't do anything. Yeah, I did nothing, I just recorded audio and just and you just put it out there.
Speaker 1:Okay, fair. So we've spoken about you know so many of your roles and you said that you were also a yoga instructor at some point, which is very interesting. So, entrepreneurship, banking, interior design which is right now and podcasting. Do you believe in balance? Like, where, how do you balance? Because people talk about this a lot and it's a topic that's pretty controversial on social media, and I'm going to ask you as a mom, because that's your reality Like, is there such a thing as balancing work and home life, motherhood and home life?
Speaker 2:motherhood. It's tough, it's really tough nowadays, especially that it is a little chaotic. Our world right now, yes, and we do a lot and we spend so much time. That's a major difference from when I graduated in 98 until now, like when we were doing our job. I remember like when I was telling you investment banking, go to your job and that's it. Nobody did anything else.
Speaker 1:Nobody multitasked.
Speaker 2:Nobody did a million different things, nobody had the side hustle, nobody had the passion project you know it's like. For now it's I don't know how to strike that balance. I find it very difficult and I'm I have a hard time striking that balance because, um, in a way, as I get older, now, now I don't spend so much time socializing unless it's like completely value-added or it's something I like the more intimate, like you know, small groups, yeah, that I feel like I feel better, like after that. It's like it's not an energy drainer, it's like it revives me a little bit.
Speaker 1:So are you selective with like? You're socializing, like? Do you feel like, okay, unless it's like a big event I have to be at? I'm sure you got invited to things. How do you say yes or no? What's your filter?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm trying to work on that, but sometimes I'm like no, no, but I find that people. But you know, I feel a little bit bad because I do the whole like bad, because I I do the whole like yeah, I'll try to come, and I just don't show up. I feel so bad but I really genuinely my it's in my heart that I really want to go, but I just I feel like I can't. And small groups, I'm okay with that. Okay, big, big parties, big events. I just I feel like a fish out of water. I feel very okay, it's interesting like, I think.
Speaker 1:But do a lot of people underestimate, for example, your job? You're an interior think, bardo. A lot of people underestimate, for example, your job. You're an interior designer. You deal with a lot of people, then, in podcasting, you speak a lot, and then, after all that, and then there's your home life and your kids, I feel like the energy that's left, like you said regarding side hustles probably is not a lot to allocate to social life Right, but that's fair. To allocate to social life Right, but that's fair. Um, but do you actually believe in a balance or do you think that it's sort of like everything is a phase, like every part of life is a phase, like now? This is my podcast era.
Speaker 2:I think I think you might be right. I think there's a phase Like I get. I go through phases where I have a lot of interior design work Like I have four projects at a time and then after I go through a time where I don't have that much. So that's the time where I can kind of recharge. I wish I was just saying this actually yesterday. I wish there would be that balance where all the time where I have times because sometimes I feel like I'm burnt out, like I feel like I've been to the, been through the ringer and back and I feel like a hot mess in terms of like everything physically, mentally, emotionally and then at times where it's more quiet, where I feel like, okay, now I can recharge, but I don't. I like to be busy all the time, so I don't like to be in like too much of a low you know and what keeps you grounded?
Speaker 1:like, what do you think keeps you grounded with everything going on and, like you said, which is a really good point now that we all have side hustles and passion projects and social media, what keeps you grounded? As hiba for me, like a lot of me, I feel like I go through phases. Sometimes working out keeps me grounded, I don't know. Sometimes I don't want to work out and then something else, for example, walking I don't know.
Speaker 2:I like listen. What keeps me around is definitely that morning routine of mine where I have, like this quiet time. I get time to read, I get time to do a little bit of meditation. I'm always on some kind of course or something like something I'm learning or some kind of book I'm reading. I feel like, um, just that me time, yeah, to focus, because I am very much a wellness junkie, I'm very interested in these, you know, alternative therapies and all kinds of things that keep you grounded. So I'm always exploring. But I think that, like during those times when I'm reading this book, that feels like a little bit enlightening or that's about it, yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:So on the topic of wellness, wellness, and then I'll ask you, like my last, uh, my last question um, what's a wellness hack, now that you're in your 40s, that you wish you knew, like 10 years ago? Or like, give me one, maybe. Or, if you have two, great, like a wellness hack that you feel like I wish I knew. I wish I'd done that earlier.
Speaker 2:Well, for sure, the sleeping Sleeping well makes a huge difference. For me, though, I mean my wellness hack, I realized, and I just I keep on going through. It's like I'm kind of, you know, I go back and forth. For me, the whole thing the whole sleeping, eating properly and exercising is very important, but I think 10 years ago it wouldn't have made that much of a difference, because when you're younger, in your thirties, I could go out and do everything and do everything, and I could recover quite quickly.
Speaker 2:Now I feel I don't recover as quickly and that's why I need to be very mindful about what I put my energy into In terms of I think. I think it's very difficult to answer that question because 10 years ago, like you, like I just said 10 years ago, you might not, that might not be a hack for you when you're in your thirties.
Speaker 2:But, now, for me, I think sleep is super important. Food is very important. If I eat too much of something, it just throws me out of whack and it like affects my mood and everything. But for me definitely sleeping morning routine is so important for me it's sacred actually.
Speaker 1:And do you have, like, an evening routine or not really Like, but do? This is something that I love to know Do you have a wind down routine or is it just kind of like I'm going to Netflix and chill?
Speaker 2:When I put the kids to bed I'm I'm gonna netflix and chill really, but at the same time I know that's balanced. Yeah, that's good. I I try now not to be on my computer because sometimes I used to do that I should be on my computer working and I don't sleep that well and I get. I'm wired but, the netflix. It's chill, it helps you have um blue light blockers.
Speaker 1:There's these glasses that you can get that are called blue light blockers, where they block the light from your. I'll show you like phone or computer.
Speaker 2:I didn't know.
Speaker 1:And it helps you keep your circadian rhythm going.
Speaker 2:Oh, I gotta have that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm gonna send you this. This is really important. This changed a lot for me because I'm 1000% a scroller before bed.
Speaker 2:Oh my God, that's the worst I know. I turn off my phone. I meditate before I go to bed, so you meditate and turn off your phone. That's actually a really great.
Speaker 1:That's a good one to wind down from the day. Okay, so my last question for you on the Curated podcast is I want your curation, I want the Curated by Hiba. What are a couple of things I'm not going to give you a number that really, really elevate your life, and it can be anything like from food to art to to design elements, to habits, like. What are things that you, if I, if you would give me as new, like a couple of things. You have to do this, this, this, and it'll make your life a bit better.
Speaker 2:Well for me. I mean it's very specific to me, right? Yeah, I mean it's your advice, it's your curation. My advice is definitely you got to stay away from the energy drainers. To me that's super important. I don't have many people that drain my energy on a regular basis, but basically when I do, I'm very aware of that. Now you feel like I feel it right away, like I can sit with somebody and I feel like after 30 minutes I feel like I've been sitting with them for 10 hours. Yeah, and so I limit my time with people like that for sure. And you know, tony robbins said you're the average of the five people you hang out with A hundred percent. I went to his UPW Unleash the Power Within.
Speaker 1:I went to that Did you go?
Speaker 2:Oh, my God it was amazing in Australia in 2019.
Speaker 1:Did you cry and laugh and do everything Like I must have like if I go. I'll probably cry.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I don't. I don't like to cry in public, I cry at home, but actually, no, but this is funny because the UP, it was a great event, okay, and there were people bawling and I was like kind of like, okay, this is a little intense for me, but you know what was fun? We walked on fire. That's crazy, yeah, and that was really cool because it really tells you, I feel like it like enlightens you about your own personality. Did you do it? Yeah, I did it. You walked on fire. You walk on like burning coals and it's long.
Speaker 2:Actually, that's a mental game, yes, but it tells you. It kind of tells you what, what? I'll tell you what. What's funny about that? Because I felt like I walked a little bit and then I was like I freaked out and then I went back and I noticed I kind of do that. I do that, let's say, like with my podcast, the first podcast, I do something and I really like it. But it's like I kind of feel like, okay, maybe this isn't for me, and then I backtrack and then I go back. So you know what I mean. So actually I felt that that's quite a mirror, reflects quite well my character. It's like a metaphor. I love that. Yeah, and then I just powered through and you went through yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's crazy In Australia. Yeah, oh my.
Speaker 2:God. So that's my number one thing. I think the energy drainers. The energy drainers you need to, and there are some people in your life that have to be in your life, that are energy drainers 100%, but you them, you don't need to spend all this time with them that's.
Speaker 1:That's a really good one. It's a really hard one. Yeah, I mean you need to actively be attuned, yeah you need to set boundaries, which is really important.
Speaker 2:I'm still still learning about that, yeah, but so. So at 40s I'm still not gonna be able to be setting enough boundaries you probably have more boundaries than I am, because in my day we don't know.
Speaker 1:But like I told you to do this, you do it. I love that one. Okay, so give us a few more, just from Hiba.
Speaker 2:That elevates my life. I love art. I love art. I love the home For me. I go into my space and it's so zen and it's like my sanctuary, it's like where my life is and I have all my art and I don't know I like. For me, the home is important.
Speaker 1:Would you recommend that people invest in art on their own? Do you think it's best to have a designer like yourself helping with that? Because I think you can. It's an investment, Like, let's be real, If you're getting, if you're going to dive into the art world, it's. It's not always a big one at the beginning, but it's an investment. I think it's good to have some help because Listen.
Speaker 2:I think so. I think some people just are not really into art. If you're into art and you know what you like, I'm the type of person that I know what I like. When I see it, I like it. But there's some people that don't necessarily and I think some people. Those people need help because you want to find the right thing for your space and that kind of there needs to be some kind of love thing with you and that painting, so art.
Speaker 1:Okay, definitely. One more thing.
Speaker 2:Well reading, I think, is super important. I love to read. I know a lot of people don't super important.
Speaker 1:I'd love to read. I know a lot of people don't, but I am an avid reader and you read books or you read on a kindle.
Speaker 2:No, I can't read on kindle I had this subscription on and I read, but it's like I hate that I feel like I'm doing work. I want to read a book when I'm in my bed. I can't like, just be like yeah, and I tried.
Speaker 1:You know it's weird. I tried audiobooks and I do not remember a thing from the audiobooks. Yeah, listening to books you can listen to a podcast, by the way, that's a good point, but listening to a book, it's true, is not. It's not the same as reading. It's not the same as holding a book and reading it.
Speaker 2:No, also it kind of gets you out of the. When I'm reading, I'm I guess everybody is. You're in your zone, you're kind of making up what you're reading, right, and that's I'm. I agree with you fully. I can't listen to audiobooks, but podcasts actually reading and podcasts I find podcasts so nice, so good now, there's so many good ones, and we're not just saying that because we're podcasters.
Speaker 2:Yes, no, there's so many inspiring ones and brilliant ones, yeah, and I'm like, oh my God. And then sometimes I find myself saying, yeah, I agree with, and I'm like, okay, yeah they don't hear me, yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:So I think, last thing, maybe give us one podcast that you love, because I have a podcast, you have a podcast. What's one podcast that you like, that you enjoy?
Speaker 2:Well, at one point I used to always listen to School of Greatness Lewis Howes. It's really good. I like him and I like his way. His style is really nice. There's also. It's positive.
Speaker 1:I like it.
Speaker 2:It's positive, it's nice, it's easy, it's simple. He keeps it simple, yeah.
Speaker 1:You know he doesn't go too. You know too deep or too intense too complicated. There are ones that get a little too nitty gritty.
Speaker 2:Exactly, and there are some podcasts that are like three hours long and I'm like, oh, there's no way. And I actually do listen to them and they're good. Recently I've listened to a couple of episodes of uh diary of a ceo. Yes, it's good. That one's very good I like it too yeah I like it too.
Speaker 1:It's a long form you got to be like committed, but it's good. I like it too well. I think that's a wrap for our episode. I thank you I'm so honored to have you on my podcast thanks for having me like I think you're one of those people that I really really look up to. Oh my god really. And I'm gonna read the book so that I can prepare for what you said I can't prepare for exactly and we might, we, we have to have you on our podcast yeah, and we'll do a podcast swap.
Speaker 2:So that'll be fun.
Speaker 1:And then we can do the other way around and guys listen to who Said what with Neera and Hiba and get the book. Yes and yeah. Thank you so much for being on the Curated Pod.
Speaker 2:Thank you for having me Love this episode.
Speaker 1:That's a wrap Thank you.