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The Curation by Nour Hassan
The Curation, formerly Radical Contemporary, is a Digital Curator and Podcast based between Cairo, Dubai & Jeddah. We curate everything from art, fashion, and design, to culture, wellness and tech to present you with only the best brands, founders, products and pioneers.
The Curation by Nour Hassan
Dr. Princess Alia Al Senussi: On Art Basel, Saudi Arabia, & Cultural Diplomacy From The Ultimate Junction Maker
The art world thrives on connections – between artists and institutions, across cultures, and through the passionate individuals who dedicate their lives to fostering creative dialogue. Dr. Princess Alia Al Senussi stands as perhaps the quintessential example of this connective power, described by Hans Ulrich Obrist as "the ultimate junction maker" in the global contemporary art scene.
As we dive into this fascinating conversation, Dr. Al Senussi takes us through her journey from being a "third culture kid" of Libyan and American heritage to becoming one of the most influential figures in international art circles. Without any social media presence – a rarity in today's hyperconnected world – she has established herself as a crucial bridge between regions, institutions, and artistic communities through sheer persistence, genuine curiosity, and an unwavering belief in art's power to transcend boundaries.
Her professional evolution from Art Basel's UK and MENA representative to Senior Advisor International Outreach reveals the delicate balance between professional dedication and personal passion that drives meaningful cultural exchange.
Perhaps most revealing is Dr. Al Senussi's account of her involvement with Saudi Arabia's cultural renaissance. Despite encountering prejudice from colleagues who "absolutely didn't even want to hear that there were artists in this country," her persistence in highlighting the kingdom's vibrant creative community has helped transform global perceptions. Her co-authored book, "Arts in Saudi Arabia: A New Creative Economy," stands as a testament to this commitment.
For those aspiring to similar paths, her advice is refreshingly straightforward: "You need to engage, you need to be persistent, and you need to show up." In an industry built on relationships and in-person connections, there's simply no substitute for being physically present where art happens. Whether you're pursuing curatorial work, arts administration, or cultural diplomacy, follow Dr. Al Senussi's example – be "everything everywhere all at once" in your passionate pursuit of artistic connection.
Action. Welcome to the Curation, a show for the culturally curious. This is your host, noor Hassan. Each week, I'll guide you through a curated edit of the finest in art, fashion, design, culture, luxury, wellness, tech and more. This is your go-to space for discovering trailblazing ideas, untold stories and meaningful conversations with innovators and creators who are shaping our world. There's no gatekeeping here, so sit back, tune in and let's discover only the best. In this episode, I speak to Dr Princess Alia El-Sinousi.
Speaker 1:Alia is a globally renowned member of the contemporary art world, with a focus on cultural strategy and patronage systems. The reason I really wanted to interview Alia for the Curation podcast is because she's considered one of the foremost figures in contemporary art of our generation. She's served as Art Basel's UK and MENA representative for over a decade and is currently the Senior Advisor International Outreach for Art Basel. In 2019, she was appointed Senior Advisor to the Ministry of Culture, Saudi Arabia, where she focuses on developing international partnerships, while working on a variety of projects in Saudi Arabia the Formisk Institute, the Ministry of Culture and the Dariya Bien Ali Foundation. Dr Ali was previously a visiting lecturer at Brown University Watson Institute, working primarily with the Middle East Studies program. She also is currently the founding chairperson of the K11 International Council, a member of the Tate Modern Advisory Council in London, the Board of Trustees of the ICA London, the Strategic Advisory Panel of the Delfina Foundation London, as well as many more incredible achievements and titles that she's amassed over the years. Most recently, dr Alia has been appointed to the Ishara Foundation Advisory Board.
Speaker 1:In this episode, we discuss everything from. Dr Alia has been appointed to the Ishara Foundation Advisory Board. In this episode, we discuss everything from Dr Alia's morning routine to how it is. She traverses the liminal lines between the global, regional and local art world. It's a fascinating episode and I hope you enjoy. So, without further ado, this is my conversation with Dr Princess Alia El-Sinoussi. Hey, everyone, right now I'm speaking to Princess Dr Alia El-Sinoussi, and it's an honor to be speaking to you today. It's an honor to have you on my podcast. You're actually a guest that has been really on my bucket list for a couple of years now.
Speaker 1:I'm not sure if you know this, valia, thank you truly and then and we met serendipitously at ishara art foundation, um in dubai a couple of months ago and I fully like ran after you after the talk and I really just wanted to make sure to have you on the podcast because I know that my audience would love to hear more about your work.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for inviting me and indeed it was such a kind of fortuitous moment walking in there at Ischata and, you know, meeting you. It was actually my first tour there after being asked to be on the advisory board, and then they said they had another special guest that they were working with. So yeah, it was just perfect.
Speaker 1:Interesting. I love that. So our first question on the podcast on the curation is kind of a signature question for me, which is I like to ask my guest who is Alia al-Sinoussi today? So if you have to describe yourself in this moment in time and I know you have many titles which are incredible and we'll get into them, but who? Who would you say you are today?
Speaker 2:I am somebody who is deeply committed to the arts, to what art means to the world, to what art means to humanity, and I think that has been something that is the common thread throughout all the phases of my career and my adult life, which you know. My very first job was working in the art world and where I really found my calling and my passion job was working in the art world and where I really found my calling and my passion, and I would say, even more so today as we see the world that I had. So, you know, kind of thought that I lived in this cosmopolitan, multicultural world in a way kind of crumbling around us but at the same time, the arts to me are the only way we can get through this moment and hopefully build what we would wish to see.
Speaker 1:That's a beautiful answer, and I think that it kind of really sets up the stage for everything we'll speak about on this episode. And so our second question that I love to ask and I feel it tells me kind of a lot about my guest is what's your morning routine, so when you wake up?
Speaker 2:in the morning. What are all of the things that you do that kind of set you up for the day. Well, as we are in on January 8th, you know, the first week of January, I, like many people in the world and on a workout kick, and so I wake up and I will either go to a spin class or a Pilates class and, you know, kind of continue my day from there. But actually prior to that I wake up and you know, I know it's a horrible habit, but obviously the first thing I do is reach for my phone. I answer all of my WhatsApps, then I go through all my emails and invariably, because I'm in so many different time zones and I also amably because I'm in so many different time zones and I also am in contact with people in so many different time zones I have a lot to catch up on. And then during the year, my day actually, yeah, always starts with my phone.
Speaker 2:I'm gonna be honest and I'm sure my audience are gonna, you know, laugh and say the same, but also many will reprimand me for that, including my own mother. But you know, and then it starts you know, typical, I think, like many people a bottle of water, a coffee, and I try to get out for my first meeting and try to walk to my first meeting. And I find that I live in London and it's very refreshing. And even when I'm kind of during a major art moment or an art fair moment, um, you know, especially in places like Miami, I really love that morning walk in the great out of doors in Miami around this amazing beach boardwalk. Here in London we have all these parks and I love that moment of contemplation and just that breath of fresh air and and kind of being part of the world.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that. And would you say that you're more of a morning person or you've become a morning person over the years?
Speaker 2:So I definitely think like my like in terms of work wise, absolutely, I am the most productive in the mornings in terms of, you know, like thoughtful emails, writing. I am right now on a major deadline for an essay and that is definitely like it needs to be done in the first half of my day, but I am also, you know, just invariably because of my commitments and all of the things I do. Work for me really is also in the evening, but that's more interacting with artists, going to openings, going to dinners, you know, meeting people, you know, and that you know. Of course it's super fun and I love what I do and I actually have so much fun doing what I do. But it's work and you know that's also, you know. So I'd say my day is split morning and evening. Between the two types of two sides of my work.
Speaker 1:My day is split morning evening between the two types of two sides of my work. Yeah, that's a super interesting juxtaposition of, like what we do. Essentially, you have to be productive in the morning, but a lot of what goes on in the art world is essentially like things that do happen, events that are later in the day, et cetera. So that's a really good point. And you're incredible at answering emails Like. I've never really met someone so like efficient at answering emails, like. Even when you're Art Basel, you're like I'm in Miami, I'll get back to you. I love it. It was fantastic, all right. So your journey in the contemporary art world has been honestly quite extraordinary. You know, can you share initially what drew you to this field, just how it all started? Just very briefly for the audience, because ever since then there have been many iterations of your career. But what was the beginning point that you can pinpoint?
Speaker 2:So when I was in university I studied international relations and Middle East studies and I was always really fascinated with the way in which the world worked, connecting people from different parts of the world, connecting communities. Because I am somebody who's you know, I call myself a third culture kid. You know there was a fascinating article by another fantastic journalist called Noor Brara for the New York Times describing what a third culture kid is, and actually she also did a feature on me for Artnet. That's probably one of the best written features on me. She really got me and then I understood that because she herself was also like me, and when she wrote the New York Times it was about Luca Guadagnino's TV show and about the way in which we perhaps grow up and how we bring together our various influences for somebody like me.
Speaker 2:So I'm half Libyan, half American. My father's family are very Libyan, you know. Had left Libya, lived in Cairo. I lived with them. There are very Libyan, you know. Had left Libya, lived in Cairo. I lived with them there. My father kind of grew up between Rome after they had left Libya and he was 12 years old. My mother was American, very American, grew up in Minnesota. I then lived with her in the US but then traveled to see my father and his family. So I lived between these two very different worlds. I didn't live in like an Arab family in America. You know, it's a different, you know kind of a different concept.
Speaker 2:So then, you know, I went away to school. I went to boarding school, I went to, then back to the US University, but within a very international community, at Brown. Brown is a very international school and because I'd gone in from an international school, I then was, you know, kind of grouped together with the international students. Of course also had, you know, many American friends. So my world was always like piecing together these parts and I became very interested in what artists do, how culture is translated.
Speaker 2:And I was, you know, in university during 9-11, and there was so much misunderstanding and so much misinformation and then, of course, arabs and Arabic countries, especially at that time Saudi Arabia, were trying to really explain who they were. You know, not everyone is painted with one brush. Not everyone is painted with one brush. And so then I moved to London and, just by chance, a friend of mine from university, her mom was a collector and was very deeply involved in the art world. Funnily enough, I just ran into her on the street yesterday. I don't see her that often but she's this wonderful, wonderful woman. So you know, it's like all my world coming together that we're talking about her today. And she said there's this amazing project in Siwa in Egypt and I think you know you should go do that. Don't do your don't. I was doing a summer internship at Goldman Sachs. She was like I don't see you as an investment bank, wow.
Speaker 2:Very different, very different, yeah, exactly. And I was like really, and she's like, yes, just go do this. Like go talk to the, the, the, the it was a gallery that was putting it together um, who have the house and kind of, uh, sponsor the project. And so I go um into this meeting. You know I'm 22 years old and um, the gallers hires me right away.
Speaker 2:It took some time, and so for all of you in the audience, I, whenever I do any calls and mentorship of young people, I say you have to be persistent. I wrote him at the time, you know, a cover letter. I sent it in the mail, I hand delivered it. No response. I sent him an email no response, like second or third email. Okay, yeah, come in for a. Sorry, you know haven't gotten back to you. Come in for an interview. So you know, haven't gotten back to you. Come in for an interview. So you know, you just kind of politely persist and you know you'll get your meeting or maybe you won't, but you know, at least you've tried. And so it was funny he had to say I'm still very close to him.
Speaker 2:Michael Q Williams, he discovered my cover letter when he was like moving offices a few years ago. He sent me a picture of it and I mean, let me just say I was slightly embarrassed, but you know, I was 22 years old. But it was like dear mister, I would like to introduce myself, but it was like lovely.
Speaker 1:But I love that. That's just like the nice thing. 22 and feeling like I guess you. So where do you get this persistence from? Is it from your mother, your father? Your upbringing that sort of had you interact with a plethora of people.
Speaker 2:I think it's. It was the upbringing, like, if I look at, you know, kind of neither my mother or my father are, let's say, my like people who mentored me professionally. I mean, they've both been extremely supportive of my professional life, um, but, you know, have not taken the same path. I have, Um, my grandfather, my, my maternal grandfather, um, you know, have not taken the same path. I have my grandfather, my maternal grandfather, you know, was somebody who really believed in hard work.
Speaker 2:You know, one of his favorite phrases was you must be a productive member of society, you know, in all ways, and kind of give back. You know you vote, you, pay your taxes. You, you know you work, you support your community, pay your taxes. You, you know you work, you support your community. So I think that was something that was deeply ingrained in me. And then, I mean, the rest of it just kind of fell into place. You know, I'm an only child. I have a younger half brother, but we didn't grow up together and, you know, just kind of getting through things on my own, but with loving support from my family and friends.
Speaker 1:And I find it fascinating that you not only kind of started your career at this project but you went on so far as to do a PhD eventually, right In politics and exploring sort of cultural strategy. Can I ask you what made you actually end up doing a PhD?
Speaker 2:Um, two factors really. Uh, and, to be totally honest, part of it was that people and still to a certain extent, you know, I have like a misperception of me and my life and my work Less so now because I've established myself, I think and thank you so much for your very kind introduction. You know, I think people respect me and what I do and I've worked hard for that. But people still look at me and will say, oh, but she's having so much fun. You know, that's just like fun, like she just like travels around the world and like, oh, she just goes to dinners or you know whatever. But what I do is work and I really believe that.
Speaker 2:I actually have a friend in New York and I really respect how she describes what she does. She said, son, I can't even tell you how many boards. She is deeply involved in the international community, but especially the New York art community, and when she talks to her young daughters she's like mommy's going to work, she's going to a gala benefit, she's going to a dinner, it's work. And that is like what we do and how we, you know, produce and support and give back and how we work within this art world ecosystem. So I kind of wanted to you know at the time redefine to people. You know that I wasn't just this, you know, young socialite swanning around with a couple of fancy titles.
Speaker 1:It was much more than that Because I think it's interesting, because even for me I feel very similarly, as well as a lot of my audience. When you work in the creative industries, especially on social media, your life can seem like it's very. There's certain elements that seem glamorous, that seem like it isn't work, that seem like, for example, it is a lot of socializing and networking and there is a purpose to everything that you do if you're doing it right. So you ended up in PhD, to sort of say. Not only is this work, not only do I take it seriously, but I'm effectively making major changes and shifts and I'm in this dialogue major changes and shifts in our dialogue.
Speaker 2:Yes, and I think also I'm taking this seriously. But I also think that we can analyze things seriously and I really do believe in like a critical, academic approach to the arts, to work to what I do and in what comes from you know academia and I think also from you know you have these like incredible writers and critics in the world. You know we can take a kind of self-assessment and we can kind of look at the work that we are doing and redefine it. Of course it should be lots of fun and I am lucky that I take great joy and great pleasure in the art world and interacting with the art world. I, you know, of course, get exhausted like the next person and I can't go 365 days a year but I can almost do that. And then, you know, I take a few was about, you know, proving something, but also proving something to myself and really, you know, kind of looking at the world in the art world in a different way.
Speaker 1:Right and I think that essentially now, when, when anyone reads your title, I think it's quite, it's, uh, it's quite an incredible fascinating title. You are, you know, dr Alia al-Sinoussi. You're also Princess Alia al-Sinoussi. You do not have a social media presence, which is extremely fascinating because even for someone like me who, before meeting you, I wanted to kind of research, you Google, you figure out, um, you know, kind of like learn more about you, and I found that you don't have a social media. So it's obviously easy to learn more about you because there's like millions of articles and interviews and podcasts, etc. But is there a reason for this? I mean, just before recording, I asked you and I'd love to know.
Speaker 2:So was it intentional not to be part of social media, very reticent of having my whole life be so open to the world? In a way, I'm not a very private person, Like I'm very open book. I'm very happy to talk to people about you know, my life, my struggles, my, you know who I am, but in another way I like to keep things in a very, you know, closed circle and not publish it to the world. I was on a small world. I would say that that's probably the only social media thing that I've ever had. And then, yeah, Facebook, no, and then definitely no Instagram. I love like chat and I hope. Sometimes people call WhatsApp social media. I personally don't call WhatsApp social media because it's only for your context or people who connect to you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I don't.
Speaker 1:I don't, it would count as such, Not really. So, yeah, I think for me it was just very much about you know who I am and being able to keep that for myself social media but simultaneously have such a prominent presence online Because, like you said, I don't I would not call you a private person. I think you you really are quite incredibly approachable, social etc. But and it is so incredible that you can find so much information about your work online but you don't have Instagram, which, in my opinion, kind of adds such a nuanced layer, to be honest, to the work that you do, especially in your field. So I'd love to get into just my next question, which is you've been a key part of in Art Basel in general it's kind of this whole world and so what have been the most transformative moments during this time there, especially since you are representing sort of the UK and the MENA region? How has it been being such a representative and such a key person?
Speaker 2:I really believe in the role of the gallery in the art world and what the gallery means to the art world ecosystem. And I am so proud that Art Basel is an organization that so deeply supports galleries and then supports them to help their artists and support their artists. You know, artists are, you know, the fundamental nucleus of the art world and to me, galleries, representing their estates, you know, for artists who are no longer with us, or representing living artists, are the conduits by which they can get that message out into the world. And you know, within our Basel universe, we now have four fairs. You know, when I started, it was with Sam Keller, the legendary director, who expanded this. You know, when I started it was with Sam Keller, the legendary director who expanded this, you know, wonderful but small niche show in Basel, switzerland, to Miami.
Speaker 2:I started when we had Miami and I actually got hired when we were in Miami and I'll never forget the joy of that moment, wow, yeah, yeah, it was really really very special. And I'll say, actually with Sam. I was at dinner and Sam, you know, I was like oh my God. You know, he kind of came up to me and I was sitting actually at the time with my mother. It was, you know, thanksgiving weekend and she was just about to leave and I was just finishing up and then starting a work week and I just said, oh my God, sam, this is my mom. Like you know, I just got this. You know she knew, I knew I just got it. I was like this is the man who just hired me and I was like, thank you so much. My mom was like, oh, thank you so much. My daughter's so excited. He's like, well, we're just so happy to have her come official title but also to be paid for what you do.
Speaker 2:And I think that you know there is a misconception in the art world of paid and unpaid work. The work that I do for institutions is, of course, unpaid, you know, like for Tate, and of course people do work for those institutions, but they are in full-time positions and are paid to do, you know, their job and their role. My role with Tate or Guggenheim and others is the opposite, right, but then my work with Art Basel and in Saudi is, of course, out of passion and out of love, but it's also a different type of work. It's, you know, remunerated and I think that's really important and I would say that like having that moment of validation was a really special time. And then you know, from there I was, I was a representative for the MENA region, then took over the UK and then was appointed as a senior advisor, really for kind of all aspects of our international outreach, because of my passion and my presence in so many of our key markets.
Speaker 2:You know, I'm a you know, I think, almost an honorary Hong Konger at this point. I absolutely love Hong Kong. I think it is one of the most special cities in the world and I am so happy and honored and pleased to work there. I'm on several different committees. I'm now the chairman of the K11 International Council. You know work with the Design Trust. You know, every year actually it was almost an auctioneer last year which was deeply scary being up there on stage, and you know, I just I love it and I love all these places and all the people of these places.
Speaker 2:And of course, now we have Paris. Paris has been a really wonderful journey. I was spending quite a bit of time in Paris over the last couple of years when we made that announcement, and doing a lot in the city and, you know, kind of trying to create this international feeling there and of people who you know and, of course, for the Middle East, it's such a, you know, kind of trying to create this international feeling there, and of people who you know and, of course, for the Middle East, it's such a, you know, great hub. You know, like so many, so many Arabs you know, have such an affinity to Paris. You know, either remember it from family or have family ties there. Yes, of course, from North Africa, but also from across the Gulf, so and of course, lebanon and Syria. You know there's just that tie.
Speaker 1:I think it's interesting because, other than Art Basel and obviously you know, in our introduction for this episode it's going to be a very long introduction, alia, because you sit on a lot of boards, because we do the intro separately, so everyone will hear all of this before listening to the episode I am curious to ask you so, as a member of all of these global advisory boards, how do you balance sort of fostering emerging talent and youth with preserving cultural heritage? I kind of feel that you do both. You're very much in tune with what's happening in the now and the contemporary, but also you are a major player in preserving cultural heritage, telling these stories and we'll get into Saudi Arabia next so how do you kind of keep that balance going and make sure that you know you're always traversing both?
Speaker 2:I think it's just, you know, having a open and curious mind. You know, I'm equally happy to look at the work of a young artist, for example, like Noor Jauda, and be so proud of her. And of course it's partially nationalistic, she's Libyan, she lives between Cairo and London. We have all these. There are so many touch points of our stories that are the same and I love that, but of course she's wildly talented. Love that, but of course she's wildly talented. I mean, she is just, you know, an incredible star of, you know, this generation and that's coming up in the art world and thankfully institutions have recognized that.
Speaker 2:Um, but it was also, you know, I put her in touch with, like I did a, I did a talk and, um, kind of a platform for her. Then somebody who I invited to that then made a studio visit and out of that came the one of the major acquisitions during freeze last year. So you know that was a direct introduction and a direct connection and sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't work, you know. Sometimes you know somebody's not interested or they don't see it. But I think it's just really being able to see.
Speaker 2:And you know, I have been told Hans Ulrich Oberst has said that I am the ultimate junction maker and I would thank you, I would embrace that title and that moniker, because that is also. It's a talent, but it's also something that you work on and hone. I am always looking at who can I matchmake, who can I put together Romantically. Only once have I been successful in creating a marriage, but you know, once is pretty good. But I have had dozens, if not hundreds, of successful matches made professionally and I am very, very proud of that.
Speaker 1:So the ultimate junction maker. I love that. That's a really fascinating title, I think. So my next kind of question for you and one of our last questions on the podcast is, of course, regarding your work in Saudi Arabia is, of course, regarding your work in Saudi Arabia, I think you've been very much a key figure in telling the stories, in telling this story not only, but obviously a senior advisor to Saudi Arabia's Ministry of Culture, which is an incredible position, and this country really has gone through a cultural renaissance.
Speaker 1:We can call it that, and not only that. You're involved with the Deraa Biennale as well as the MISC Arts Institute. Then Only that you're involved with the Deraa Biennale as well as the MISC Arts Institute. Then, of course, you wrote the book co-authored Arts in Saudi Arabia A New Creative Economy with Rebecca. So this is a lot of work that you've done with and in parallel to what was going on in Saudi Arabia over the past few years. How does it feel to have been part of this kind of major cultural renaissance and what made you dive in so far as to write this book that I think?
Speaker 2:is the first of its kind, thank you. My passion for the arts of Saudi Arabia stems from my passion for the arts of the region and stems from my passion for connecting artists and the art world globally. And I was in London, you know, in a very particular moment. It was early in my career, it was the first year I was working, just after this wonderful, famous Siwa project with the Kabakovs and Edge of Arabia had just started and I was, somebody came into my office and asked me one of the only other Arab women who was working in the art world happened to meet one of the people who was in the organization and she said oh, you know, can you take this meeting? Like, there's this new organization, they need some help. And she wasn't very involved in what was happening in the Middle East or in the Gulf and I always was very interested. You know, I was the first, you know, board member of Art Dubai, helped start the art fair and again, that was also somebody who was, like you know, put in front of me and asked to meet me. And you know I took the meeting.
Speaker 2:I really deeply believe that. You know you take every meeting. You know whether or not that person you know impresses you or it turns into something. You know, I believe in giving people time because people have given me time and I want to give back. So you know, those were kind of two seminal moments of you know, taking a meeting and then diving in, and so, edge of Arabia, I, you know, then introduced them to one of my best friends who ended up becoming their creative director, who really then took them to like new heights in terms of their international engagement. Then I mean their creative director, who really then took them to new heights in terms of their international engagement.
Speaker 2:Then I joined, they started and we started an international advisory board and this was all unpaid, volunteer work alongside my day job, which was working at the gallery as an artistic director, as an artistic liaison and director of all of our artists' relationships, and it grew from there and I became very passionate about what's happening in Saudi. I also, I think, like you know many people and sometimes you know when you just get so irritated by people's prejudice. You know the art world and so many people who I deeply respected were so prejudiced against Saudi and just absolutely didn't even want to hear that there were artists in this country and I just thought that that was so crazy. Right, and I, you know, again, like I said, I dove in and I gave it my all and I just felt like I should support you know what was happening and support the artists in this movement. And eventually, you know, the Saudi Art Council was formed. We had 2139 every year. And eventually, you know, the Saudi Art Council was formed, we had 2139 every year. And you know, I was invited to come back and visit, invited to do talks with them and just, you know, be a friend in a way to the Saudi Art Council.
Speaker 2:And then, when the Ministry of Culture was announced and started, I was the first advisor hired. You know, there was a kind of long talk back and forth about whether or not I would take a full-time role. And you know, move to Riyadh. But my, you know, I kind of convinced myself like it's not that I wouldn't want to, it's that my strength is being on the outside. You know, my strength is, you know, bringing people together. And if I'm, you know, and I'm also not super administratively talented or bureaucratically talented, you know that would all just be lost there for me, you know, and my talents wouldn't be used the way they should and my strengths wouldn't be used the way they should. So, yeah, we've come to now, this wonderful moment where I'm, you know, working professionally but also very passionately and, you know, really so excited to see all the fruits of everyone's years of struggle and years of work.
Speaker 1:I think it's very interesting that you said that a lot of people did not want to receive this whole shift and kind of the revelation of the art world in Saudi Arabia in general.
Speaker 1:But I think even just from attending your talk at Al-Sidqal Avenue, just as one example, I mean everyone is extremely curious about the book. The book is doing incredible and the questions you know you can tell that the amount of curiosity, the amount of interest now is just palpable. And so I think one of my last questions for you, alia, is you know you're the founding chairperson of the K11 International Council and a member of the Tate Modern Advisory Council and so many more. So I just want to know how is it that you kind of balance if there is such a thing as a balance, you know kind of the regional representation, because you are such a incredibly powerful like regional figure in the art world now as well as being such an international art figure at Art Basel etc. Is there a balance, or do you kind of now do people understand that you are one of those rare players in the industry that can traverse both?
Speaker 2:worlds. I believe I am everything everywhere all at once. Um, I don't know if everyone understands that and I think actually there is a lot still of misperception. It's like, no, but you're doing this. No, you can't put me in a like you know, trying to put me in a box. Um, I recently had a work call that was very much that, and I was like no, that's, it's impossible.
Speaker 2:Because you know I can wake up to a message from you know an artist asking me for help for a project in Portugal, and you know, if I'm able to and of course I'll always respond, and if I'm able to, I will I can equally wake up to, you know, multiple emails, like this morning about like a K-11. We're doing like a major project with Hanselwork Oberst about gaming, and then I'm putting them in touch with a woman I know in London whose husband is in gaming. And then, of course, all of this simultaneously right now, because we're two weeks away from the opening of the Islamic Arts Biennale waking up to like dozens of messages and emails from people planning their trip. So, yeah, you know it's everything everywhere all at once. And yesterday I was on an Aspen Art Museum call.
Speaker 2:I've just recently been invited to join their air circle, where they're really trying to think of a moment of convening and almost a summit, where artists are really put at the forefront and where Aspen's great history as being an intellectual center also includes artists. And so you know that covers, I think, almost every geography except for South America, because, equally, just now, as I'm talking to you, I have several emails from about 154 in Marrakesh, the African Art Fair, where I'm a founding board member and I'm going and I'm hosting the Tate and Guggenheim there and we're doing an incredible series of activations and artist studio visits and, of course, gallery visits, and they are all super, super excited to come and experience African art. Many of them, of course, know and know the region, but actually the kind of chief curator is coming from the Guggenheim has never been to North Africa and so it's really exciting for me to be able to reveal that to her.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it's a. You really are one of those individuals that you know, if you get the pleasure to meet or listen to or read more about. I think you have effectively kind of broken that whole you know barrier or mold or whatever it is that you need to have that one title or you need to be that one thing be put in a box, and I think that is kind of that is the question of our generation. Really, it's something that we talk about a lot on the podcast is that you can be several things at once, and that's that's exactly how it is that you, you know, grow and develop. So my final question for you, alia, before our curation or are curated by Alia at it is what advice do you have for someone who wants to get into the art world, not as an artist, not as a gallerist, but perhaps as a curator or consultant? What character traits do you feel is what interests me the most? Someone needs to have to be part of this industry.
Speaker 2:You need to engage, you need to be persistent and you need to follow up and you need to show up. You know, I think one of the number one things I always say is you need to show up, you need to go to openings, you need to go to art fairs, you need to go to museums, you need to go to meetings. You to go to art fairs, you need to go to museums, you need to go to meetings. You know, as I said, when people ask me, you know, the other night I went to an artist studio. He's a young libyan artist.
Speaker 2:Um, we met because I'd somehow come across his uh, his, he'd done a show at a small non in South London and actually I had sent sent someone to go see it because I wasn't here at the time. I ended up, I think, catching like the last day of it. But I read the brochure and you know, I just reached out and I said, oh, I'm Libyan and you know, congratulations on your show. And in the end, you know, I invited him to things and he came and actually did my talk for Nourjaouda and he came to another talk I did at the ICA and he really impressed me with, you know, just being super with it and being very engaging with me and responding, and then was very persistent in inviting me to his studio. I mean sent me I can't tell you how many emails I was traveling and this and that and I couldn't make the time.
Speaker 2:It was an hour to get from my house to his studio. Um, you know, and during a really busy time of year for me, like kind of November, december, that's like a very difficult thing to be able to include when it's not along the route of like I can't like add three things within that, right, it's like very isolated. So I ended up going you, it's like, you know, january. I got back on Saturday from the holidays and I went to see him on Monday and I was so happy I was there. He was so impressive, so articulate.
Speaker 2:You know, it was so interesting also to see the studio space. It's called Set London. It was like in an old mother care. They like kind of converted it into artist studios and I was like how did I ever doubt that I wanted to come and do this? So he, you know, kind of further, and every time this happens to me, by the way, often, and every time I, you know, I kind of go and I'm like why did I not do this before? So I'm, you know, very happy for people to be persistent. I am that same person, you know, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it also doesn't really culturally translate. I think certain countries don't appreciate that and they kind of think if they're not responding to you, it means they don't want to talk to you. But you know, how do you know that? I would say go for it.
Speaker 1:I love that. I think that's like the perfect advice because, truly, I think that is the key and okay, so my last question for you is curated by Alia, which is basically, what is your life curation? Like sort of life hacks, routines, products, things that you have in your life, that sort of elevate your life, that make it a little better, that you would share with our audience? Just like a couple of things that come to mind.
Speaker 2:It can be anything Korean skincare number one, Definitely Yearly, if not twice a year, visit to Korea to see my incredible friends there, who I love very much in Seoul and going to this kind of spa place called Chaum that does the most incredible face massage treatment. The whole thing Wonderful. Recommend it to everyone. It's not invasive, it's just like a kind of incredibly elevated facial and then I'm very good with my self-care and I think you know as much as we're talking right now about art and, like you know, our life curation.
Speaker 1:My audience will write them down and actually go.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, number one like I love my life, I of of course have challenges. I of course have, you know, down moments. I am deeply grateful to my therapist. I'm deeply grateful to my friends who, before I had a therapist were my therapists and, you know, to my mom, who is and always will be my also extra therapist and cheerleader and biggest critic, and all of it you know I love very much. But I think you know you always need a person, right? That's the number one thing. You need a person in your life who is that person, or several people.
Speaker 2:And then I see great arts, which you know is now proven more and more and more that arts and being surrounded by the arts and seeing art is great for mental health. Actually, jameel has a Jameel Art and Health Lab. They're trying to define that more, improve that more, so that people and societies accept that and give funding to art spaces so that people have that outlet. I believe that deeply. I think you know, in some of my most you know, kind of down and sad or depressing moments, you know, being in a beautiful museum or interacting with a great artist or a great curator or a great patron has been such a way of making me feel better. And then you know, to be more definitive, what those hacks are. Indeed, korean skincare, just enjoying those little things. Like I said, my morning walks are very important to me.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Really a big part of my life and my mental health.